DO 24688/88

—How to deal with a backslidden-in-heart mate!—"Let the Unbelieving Depart!"—1Cor.7:15.

[HomeARC note (9/98): The Charter states the Family's current policies, principles, and attitudes regarding membership requirements, and separation and divorce.]

1. (Maria: On Barz' report you commented, "I put up with Eve for too many years!" But in the past you've told the Family, "I stayed with Eve for the sake of the children, no matter how bad she was, I did it for the children." Perhaps it would help clarify this for the Family if we could define a little more clearly the reasons for which we can & can't separate. When a situation is really bad, the children would probably have a lot more peace & grow a lot more spiritually if the offending mate did leave, like what happened with Barz' kids when their mother left. That's when they really grew spiritually, when all that division & strife was gone.)

2. Well, when I was with Eve I still pretty much stuck to Biblical ideas—maybe old–fashioned Biblical ideas—of keeping the commandments, the Old Testament‚ Mosaic Law. There's also plenty in the New Testament about it in the 7th chapter of 1st Corinthians, about not leaving your wife unless she leaves you. But if she leaves you, then you're not bound. Otherwise, the Lord says He abhors him that putteth away his wife.—Mal.2:16. God's Word is very strong on that. He probably knew there was going to be a lot of that, so He abhors putting away.

3. Anyway, I felt that I had to stay with Eve unless she left me. She had reared the children well, except for Deborah. She had trained them to memorise Scripture first of all, which was very good, & then trained them to get out & witness & to go on the road & put on programs in churches, etc., go witnessing & get offerings to help with our support & all that sort of thing, & she really helped to get the Family started with the Teens for Christ.

4. She didn't expect or want it to go as far as it did under me‚ but she helped to get it started when I was in the Gospel TV business working with Fred. She ran the little schools I left behind & she took care of the kids & trained them‚ & she was pretty faithful to the Lord. She really worked for the Lord‚ she was no backslider like Barz' wife was all that time. She was faithful to the Lord's Work, & the children‚ & most of the time to me, even though I was away a lot.

5. As long as she kept the home & the school & the kids & kept the home fires burning for the Lord & was doing a good work training them, I felt I should stick with her. Although I can't necessarily say that all of her training was really complete or the very best, it was pretty good regarding the Lord's Work. About practical things of the home & keeping clean & all that sort of thing, how could she keep kids clean when she didn't know how to keep clean herself? She was filthy & a filthy housecleaner & we always had roaches because she left food all over the place, never cleaned the counters, she was just filthy!

6. But despite all that, when it came to religion & the Lord, spirituality, she trained the children well & kept them close to the Lord & memorising Scripture & witnessing & singing & busy for the Lord. They were the only ministry she had, & it was obvious that God wanted her to work on them, because they were being trained for a greater work than she would ever do. At first she resented them & didn't want them & thought‚ "Oh my God‚ what will I ever do with four children, I'll never be able to do anything for the Lord!" But it turned out that they were her ministry for the Lord & they are the ones who helped start this great worldwide work we have today, TTL!

7. (Maria: She wasn't a big murmurer like Barz' wife either, the kids grew up pretty positive, didn't they?) Yes, that was part of Eve's religion, being sacrificial. Holiness people are sufferers, you know, & they consider that part of their virtues, their merits, being sacrificial & suffering, etc. She was also strong on living by faith, she had a great deal of faith. And she put action & feet to her faith. Of course, she went overboard sometimes, & if the host didn't give something to us, she'd just take it out of the icebox! Or if the price wasn't right on the clothes at the Goodwill store, she'd change the tags! She got caught at that once & they threatened to call the cops!—So I certainly don't recommend such behaviour!

8. She was the manager of our first provisioning team of our first little handful of "Teens for Christ," & later she was over several teams that we had at the Club with regular provisioning routes & everything. She was good at that & got it all organised. So she was good at living by faith‚ suffering, sacrificing‚ training the kids, prodding us to keep busy for the Lord, & of course, always trying to force me to become a flaming evangelist & something famous in the churches! She couldn't see anything beyond the churches. She said one day, "Well‚ if it's not in church, where can it be? There is nothing else!"—And she was right, there was nothing else until we started the Family! And of course, neither she nor I ever foresaw that!

9. We did minister largely outside of the churches, largely because we were fed up with them‚ & our little "Teens for Christ" was really the beginning of the Family & its ministry. But it was half in church & half out of church‚ & she couldn't see how we could get our support any other way but from the churches & churchy friends & relatives.

10. She was strong on faith‚ but she also put feet to her prayers, & they went provisioning & went to the churches & took offerings & put on programs & all that sort of thing. So she made their ministry virtually self-supporting in those early days. Of course, I kept things going with the expenses she couldn't handle, by my work, my business is what it really was, for Fred's television ministry.

11. (Dad has a sudden pain, & Mama prays for him, & it goes away.) I'm sure it was an attack of the Enemy to shut me up!

12. Well, I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Eve was good for me & the kids in those early days, & she had a very good ministry, but she was just part of our preparation, she could only go so far. She could never see any further than the churches. And since she's gone back, they still go to the churches & they work the church way, have fellowship with the church people & the churches help support them. She always loved church. She was a church Sunday School teacher‚ Young People's leader & everything from the beginning, & all of her brothers & sisters went into church work—preachers, missionaries, pastors, etc.‚ & she was trained in a church college & all that sort of thing, & she never really got over it.

13. She always considered me to be too radical & too violent & too much of a fanatic. She kind of liked it in some ways & she finally accepted some of our ways. But when she left she went right back to the churches to try to bring them a little taste of revolution, particularly about witnessing & Scripture memorising. She was great on those & that's good.

14. But during those years I was working for Fred she considered I was virtually a backslider, that I was just working for business & money. She didn't give Fred nor his shows much credit, & considered that I was merely a husband & means of support & that I wasn't spiritual, I wasn't good, & she virtually counted me as a backslider, I was the one that was the bad one!—So much like this case of Barz & his wife. His wife was a good little church girl & thought she was the best, thought she was always right. Eve constantly belittled me & ran me down & made me feel like a sinner, which of course I was. But in a way I was more like the publican while she was the self-righteous Pharisee!—Lk.18:9-14.

BACKSLIDERS IN HEART!—Pro.14:14.

15. Anyway, I was reared on the Bible, & the Bible is very strong on not forsaking your mate unless they forsake you. "Except for the cause of fornication" (Mat.5:32)‚ as Jesus said, you could not put away your wife. (Maria: But God's Law of Love frees us from fornication, right?) Exactly. (Maria: The Word also says, "Who is My mother & My brethren & My father?", & you could add "wife" to that.—"They that do the will of My Father in Heaven."—Mat.12:50.) Exactly. And as far as we're concerned there's no such thing except spiritual fornication now. In other words‚ being unfaithful to the Lord is the worst fornication. As the Lord's Wife, to be unfaithful to Him, untrue to Him, is the worst of all fornication. (See James 4:4.)

16. (Maria: So you could condemn Barz' wife on those counts.) Oh, goodness gracious yes! She was constantly a backslider at heart & a constant murmurer, & there's nothing God hates like a murmurer! (Maria: Almost all backsliders, even backsliders at heart, are murmurers.—You can almost tell who is a backslider by their murmuring attitude.) Absolutely! And why do they murmur?—It's lack of faith. Barz said she constantly doubted & lacked faith‚ couldn't believe I was God's Prophet, & didn't agree with the things I said.

17. All these are such outstanding signs, it's hard to understand why someone who really loves the Lord‚ a good old sinner like Barz is & was—yet his attitude of mind & heart were much better than hers—could possibly be so blind! He really loved the Lord & wanted to serve the Lord & wanted to be in submission to leadership & wanted to stick with the Family! Whereas she was constantly complaining & constantly literally backsliding as well as backsliding in her heart! She backslid several times, went back, & always wanted to go back!

18. You don't have to wait for somebody to backslide! I've always said this, that the minute they start grumbling & murmuring & complaining‚ it shows a lack of faith.—A lack of faith in the Family‚ in the leadership, in the way we do things, & they've already turned back in their hearts! That's what the Lord said.—Lk.9:62. I mean, why are people so blind that they can't recognise when someone is a backslider at heart, even though they don't leave physically! (See Prov.14:14.)

19. You owe nothing to the backslider except to love him or her, but love him in the right way, not as blindly as Barz has been absolutely spellbound by her! They're always doubters & murmurers to begin with, doubting & then murmuring because of their doubts. They're already backslidden in their hearts. "These people draw nigh & worship Me with their mouth," the Lord said, "but their hearts are far from Me!"—Mat.15:8. They're still there physically, bodily, going through the motions, but reluctantly & grumblingly & resentfully!

CHURCHY TYPES!

20. And the churchy type usually think that they should have been used more & have better positions of leadership‚ etc., & that was Eve's attitude. "Here I am, I used to be somebody, now I'm nobody, & I've just got a bunch of kids I have to take care of!" Well, at least, give her credit, she made the best of the situation & she decided that since she had the kids & she had to take care of them, she'd just work on them & make them her ministry, & she did, GBH for that!

21. But she constantly belittled me‚ discouraged me, ran me down, even embarrassed me before others, shamed me, criticised & belittled me before others. Of course, that was a little more than either I or the Lord could take, & that's when she began to overstep her bounds. Her ministry was then finished. The kids had been trained by that time—they were old enough to carry on on their own without her—& I was out of my job then & could devote my full time to teaching them & taking care of them.

22. I didn't care to go in the churches & to their little meetings & all. I'd had that kind of stuff in church up to here, & I was sick of it! It never accomplished much of anything, the people never changed, about all you could do was make a friend here or there who you could write to & they could help support you in your ministry. But they never changed. You hardly ever got anybody to forsake all & become a real disciple & go with you. Well, we got a few here & there, but they were real rarities.

23. Church people just love to have you come in & entertain them, talk to them & witness & quote Scripture & inspire them. "My, these children are so wonderful, they're so encouraging!"—Especially compared to their own little brats, ours looked like saints, & were! So they love to have you come in & give them a sample of what they don't have & what they don't even hope to have, but to at least show that it exists. And maybe they'll be willing to give you a good offering to help support it, & sometimes they'll even pledge support for later if you ask'm. Then you can put them on your mailing list & keep in touch with them to try to at least keep up their support. They won't go out & do it but they'll often pay somebody else to do it.

24. So the Lord had to take a whole new generation that wasn't even in church to do the job, thank God! And those church people can really be the most dangerous disciples of all. Even I used to long for & mourn for the Church, like Samuel did for Saul (1Sam.16:1), & lament that I no longer sang any more, & I'd think, "Well‚ church wasn't so bad after all. It was lots of fun & lovely people & nice music & we did a little good & we won a few souls & a few people were healed & it was kind of nice & enjoyable!"—And it was!—All pleasure!

25. But it certainly wasn't service. They weren't services, as they call them, they were parties in which they just enjoyed each other's fellowship & the entertainment & the music & the pretty little inspirational talks. But it never got them out to witness or do anything for the Lord! Their job was to come to the church & put their offering in the basket, support the preacher & maybe support a missionary or two‚ that was their job.—And then they'd work all week long at their System secular Mammon jobs. Well, you know how I feel about that!

26. So anyhow, Eve never quite got over that thing about the churches, she never gave up on them, & she hasn't given up yet! She's still going to the churches! Well, they need the Message, & they need to be convicted that they're not doing it, & therefore inspired to support you & the missionaries who are doing it. That's about the best you can get out of most church people.

27. But those disciples we've had who were formerly church people, they can sometimes become real problems.—Especially if they were leaders in the church, which the preachers' children usually are, they're usually quite favoured & exalted & given positions of leadership & they're used to being spiritually superior to others. Barz' wife's dad is a preacher, & he apparently spoiled her rotten, & she always wanted to go back to him. …

MOTHER EVE AT HUNTINGTON BEACH!

28. So back to what I was saying about families, wives‚ husbands & children: I waited‚ I felt it was my duty to wait‚ & I'm sure it was the Lord's Will that I waited. Now I'm not talking about other people, but I waited. That was my calling to wait until Eve had gone as far as she could go‚ as far as she could carry the children, & the children had gone as far as they could go under her, & it was time for me to take over.

29. So when I saw it & the Lord called me & showed me what I was supposed to do, that I was supposed to be a Shepherd of the Hippies, King of the Beggars, I pitched in & I went to it with tooth & tong & Bible & cries of Revolution, & I got as fanatical & radical as you can get! I challenged the System, the church‚ my Mother's friends & all, & Eve was practically shocked!

30. She was sort of half-pleased that we were actually accomplishing something with the hippies, she couldn't deny the fruits, but to divorce the churches entirely & to antagonise the churches where she was trying to get meetings, that was too much! To antagonise all my Mother's old friends, good, precious holy Christians who faithfully supported my Mother & whom she hoped to get to support us now, to just almost deliberately offend & antagonise them so they got up & walked out, that was too much for Eve, I'd gone too far! And I think about that time she just totally gave up on me. But about that time I gave up on her too!

31. I was sick of her constant condemnation. I began to realise that I was doing something for the Lord, I was accomplishing something, & her constant criticism‚ belittling condemnation, holier-than-thou attitude was wrong! (Maria: That kind of attitude is murmuring too, right?)—Yes! And I finally told her off. And she was constantly disobeying me about things & even criticising the hippies & the kids, like this one girl who joined us & came to live with us.

32. She was wearing one of those loose shifts that just has an elastic band around the bosoms. Here was this little hippie off the streets, she was a talented craftswoman, she made jewelry‚ & she made this lovely cross for me with a great big yoke to hang around my neck. I used to wear it all the time when I was demonstrating. She was the daughter of a wealthy family who owned a big department store‚ very intelligent, highly educated, a beautiful, wonderful girl.

33. But she came wearing one of those shifts with totally bare arms & shoulders. And of course, Eve had come from a church where they didn't even bare their arms, much less their armpits & shoulders & bosoms! This thing hung on pretty loose, & those girls were used to that sort of thing. They were used to nudity, that was a part of the hippie philosophy—nudity, freedom, sex & all the rest! So she was well–dressed according to hippies! Those shifts were long, clear down to their ankles‚ they were no mini–skirts or anything, they just exposed their arms & shoulders, & sometimes if they hung a little loose, their bosoms.

34. So I think Eve was jealous. She thought I was giving this girl a little too much attention or something. She was a new disciple just coming in, & I always tried to make them feel at home & loved & welcomed‚ & bestow affection on them & all the rest. In those days, there was no thought of ever actually having any sex, for goodness sake! Well, I may have thought about it, but of course we never did it. That was taboo! But she saw this girl & saw me kiss her & she got mad & told her, "Why don't you go home & put something decent on!" "Go home" is the last thing in the World she ever should have said to her! And the poor girl was so shocked & offended!

35. Eve could be bitter & sour & snappy & sarcastic & really cruel when she didn't like somebody. She drove off person after person because they weren't "holy" enough, sanctified enough, or if she thought they were after her husband. They might have been, I'm sure some of them loved me. But they got no love or affection from her! And if they didn't toe her mark according to her standards of what a Christian was, well, then out you go!

36. She was just like the church people who were holding meetings at the Club at that time & couldn't get any hippies in, because when one did drop in they'd say, "Why don't you go home & dress like a Christian!—Don't come back in here until you can dress like a Christian!" Well, they didn't know what a Christian was!—But of course neither did the church people!

37. So that was Eve! She had gone as far as she could, she had trained up the children in the way they should go, to know the Scriptures & to witness & sing for the Lord‚ & they had gotten to where they were practically operating on their own, especially with the hippies. She didn't really want to go near them. She was kind of repelled by them even in the house & whatnot.

38. She never went on any of those demonstrations. That's a sign. She never demonstrated, she never sat–in, she never went to anything that seemed to be anti-church at all. She wanted to win the favour of the churches & the System so that she could operate within them. She bawled me out many a time, "You're offending the churches, you're antagonising the churches," etc., which of course I was!

39. I finally found out I couldn't win'm so I decided to just fight'm & expose their sins & weaknesses & all the rest! That's when I told that girl reporter in the Club, "We're to the churches what the Communists are to the Capitalists!"‚ & that was a fact! And she put that in the paper! If we hadn't offended the churches before that‚ that did it! It got headlines & a picture of me up there firing away, a great big picture right on the front page!

40. It was just about the time of those Chicago riots, etc., so hippies were making news! And we were the news, the big news in the little local town. Huntington Beach was the favourite surfer's beach where they had a lot of contests, it's a terrific beach. There are a lot of oil wells there too, that's the town where oil wells were in people's backyards & everywhere. And Huntington Beach was the richest per capita town in Orange County, & Orange County was the richest per capita county in all California‚ & California was the richest state in the United States!

41. So the Lord knew where to start, with these rich kids who were fed up with what the World had to offer & who were looking for something better.—Rich‚ intelligent, smart, educated! They were not bums! We'd always thought of hippies being just Communist bums. That was our Texas redneck idea of a hippie! I think I even made the remark in those early days, "They ought to just line'm all up against the wall & mow'm down with a machine gun & we'd all be better off!" That was my idea of hippies, a bunch of criminals, drugsters, vice addicts & all the rest! I was a real Systemite redneck as bad as any other!

THE PARTING OF THE WAYS WITH EVE!

42. Well, I hope I'm not making this story too long‚ but you asked for it! So I stuck with Eve as long as she was really doing a good job serving the Lord‚ training the kids, witnessing & taking them out witnessing, taking them to the churches to preach the message of witnessing, go to the mission field instead of just sitting here like bumps on these polished logs. As long as she was doing what the Lord had called her to do, I stuck with her.

43. That was obviously her ministry, & it also gave her some of the glory that she wanted & apparently needed. She would be on the platforms with the kids as their mother & on the front seat or something while they conducted the show, & the pastor would always give her due credit: "This is Mrs. So-&-so, the mother of these amazing children," etc. And obviously she had reared them right or they wouldn't have been up there. So that was Eve.

44. But when it came time for me to begin my ministry, what the Lord had really called me to do‚ she was jealous of it, she resented it & she didn't like it because it was anti-church. So she criticised it, she condemned it. She liked the idea that we were getting hippies saved & the Club was booming & that her kids were very active, etc., but she still wanted the favour of the churches‚ the favour of Man. She was a man-pleaser, really, & she still wanted what looked good in the eyes of the people & the System.

45. So her day was over. The Lord couldn't have somebody like that on the team who was constantly trying to please the System & please the churches & trying to make us all be nice little people who didn't offend anybody & could go into those polished places & act nice & reserved & conservative. When I went, I was always getting up & creating a furor & getting carried out & all that sort of thing, & she was humiliated, she was horrified!—"Why can't you keep your big mouth shut! You're a guest & blah blah blah!" I said, "Well, then don't keep insisting I go in! You know what I'm going to do!"

46. So in other words, we'd come to the parting of the ways, spiritually, ministerially, & it was a whole new kettle of fish, a whole new program. It was in a sense what the World called a new religion, a new denomination! Denomination though, is kind of a formal term. It was a revolution, that's really what it was, & she didn't particularly like it!

47. She liked "Teens for Christ," that was a nice little conservative name that she could go into the churches with. But "Revolution for Jesus," oh, that horrified her! That was too radical, too fanatical & it would displease the churches! So she went that way & I went the Lord's way. She'd gone as far as she could go. But she did a good job going that far & I'll certainly give her credit for that. She had faith‚ she was sacrificial, she never complained about the life, what we did.

48. She never complained about anything but me! I was all she complained about! But she constantly murmured about me & against me, & when she started doing it before others‚ which was about that time, after we started ministering to the hippies, when she started condemning me & railing against me right in front of those babes, little babes who didn't know anything about church or anything, well, that was the end!

49. As far as God was concerned & I was concerned, she was going too far, she was beginning to destroy confidence in leadership. She was certainly destroying their confidence in her, because right away they looked from her to me & wondered, "Who is right? Is she one of us or not?" I'd won their hearts & they believed what I said! But they'd come home & meet her, & it was a different story! She'd say, "Go home & put something decent on‚ & get out of here if you can't act like a Christian, blah blah," cracks like that.

50. So that was the end as far as her ministry with us, she had finished it. And when she began to blatantly disobey me & be rebellious against me as well as openly criticising me‚ that was the end as far as God was concerned too, because the Lord didn't want those little lambs' faith in me destroyed by her criticisms & her cracks & her doubts & her fears & her murmurs!

51. The one little hair, the one little straw that finally broke the camel's back was when she decided to go & get her hair cut & permanented, something that was absolutely against the hippie philosophy, where it was practically their religion to have long hair, & certainly nothing in the way of permanents or anything unnatural like that! They thought that was all System & that was all false.—And it was!

52. So when she told me she was going to go to the beauty parlour that day & get her hair cut & permanented, I said, "Absolutely not! You will offend all these hippies‚ they'll know you're not one with them, not one with us at all, if you go get your hair cut!" It was like being a traitor! It was like the opposite of circumcision‚ you just didn't get it cut, or you were not one of them! Well, years later she finally changed on that.

53. So I said, "No, you don't, I forbid you to!" And she went out that afternoon & did it anyhow! And that was it as far as I was concerned. That was the last straw! She was then going to be an offence to those hippies & they were going to look on her as a Systemite, which she was, & consider that she was dangerous to have around, & wonder why I had this woman in my home, this Systemite!

54. Well, when someone has doubts & fears & then murmurs, & then it's finally carried to the point of not just murmuring to you, but murmuring to others, then it's beginning to cause little babes to stumble. And God's Word says, "Anyone who causes these little ones to stumble ought to have a millstone hung around their neck & be dropped in the sea!"—Mat.18:6. So they'd look at her & wonder. And some of them had church backgrounds, like Esther, etc.‚ and they were getting pulled out of the churches & I was trying to break them from those churchy habits, etc. But they'd look at Eve & wonder, "Well now, let's see, she's still churchy & she's still System, so who's right? You, Dad, or her?" So it was causing division.

55. So when it comes to the point where they're a backslider ... of course, Eve couldn't backslide because she had never gotten that far, she'd never gone forward! She was just rebelling against our progress & our revolution. She was doubting, murmuring & causing division, hurting the Work!

56. (Maria: All those years before then she caused division between you & the kids, didn't she?) Yes, but the only one who believed her & followed her System ways was Deborah. Deborah was System, whole heart & soul, she was Eve all over again, even worse! She was so much like my rebellious sister I sometimes forgot she wasn't & almost called her by my sister's name!

BARZ & HIS WIFE:

57. But back to the main subject: As long as Eve was an asset to the ministry, & a blessing & not a hindrance‚ as long as she was a steppingstone & not a stumblingstone, God helped me to put up with a lot. But when she began to be an actual hindrance to the Work, hurt the Work, hurt me—& hurting me was hurting the kids—God was through with her in that ministry! He saw she couldn't be used in that ministry because she resented it, she murmured against it, she fought against it.

58. In other words, when your wife or husband gets to where they are hurting you and hurting the Work & are more of a hindrance than a help, then it's time to either get'm delivered & get the victory or get'm out! But Barz went on with his wife Vivian like that for 12 years! She was a backslider at heart all the way—she doubted, she complained, she murmured! (Maria: She was even bitter against having her children!) She resented her children, resented her husband, resented any leadership. The only way they managed to get by as long as they did was because they were independent most of the time, on their own. (Maria: She even caused division with the children, speaking against her husband & his discipline of them.) Yes.

59. But he was so infatuated by her, so spellbound by her, & he seems to still be that way! In spite of all she's done‚ he still thinks she can be converted! He still thought if he could just get to her & talk to her he could change her mind! She wouldn't even talk to him when she grabbed the kids, & that's still a shock to him. I can tell by his letter that he still thinks he can somehow get through to her & win her back! He just cannot believe that she is what she is! He's going to be offended when I say she is demon-possessed!

60. Do you know what Barz was so deceived by in all of this?—By her spirit!—Because she made him feel so guilty! He was practically under her spell! She was like a witch! And he hasn't gotten over her yet after all of this! He's still not awake to the fact of what a bitter enemy she is & how demon-possessed she is!

61. She has been a bad influence on him their whole lives together, constantly, & on the children too. … And when she finally left‚ thank God, for those four years he had the children they became tremendously wonderfully united in harmony & in the Spirit & just wonderful, the best thing that could have happened! But he still regretted her going away, still wanted her to come back! He was still trying to persuade her to come back & blah blah.

62. (Maria: In this other story we're now pubbing "As Brands Snatched from the Fire" (see GN 337), the girl says she felt the same way about her former mate who stole her four children from her while she was on the mission field with her new husband.) She was the same about her husband as Barz was about his wife! They get under some kind of a spiritual bondage, an evil spiritual bondage, to those evil spirits of the former mate. (Maria: It must be something that works on some weakness they have, something that their mate has that they don't have that they admire so much.)—Yes, exactly.

63. He admired his little church girl & her goody-goodiness & the fact that she knew more about religion & the Bible, no doubt, than he did, & that she was a good girl when he'd been such a bad boy. She'd always been a good girl & these old sinners, whether husbands or wives, kind of seem to have a fascination for these churchy saints, something they never were or never could be. Therefore he always considered that she was the right one & he was the wrong one, when the fact of the matter was it was just the other way around! She was a self-righteous, hypocritical hypocrite, whereas he was a good old-fashioned humble sinner whom the Lord has much more mercy on, & he was the one who was right most of the time!

64. He still thinks he was wrong, he still thinks he should have had more love, more sympathy! He had too much‚ he tolerated too much, he put up with her too long! He should have dumped her long ago! (Maria: Maybe he thought that he couldn't‚ according to the Letters.) All right, back to that.

65. I think you have to judge each case on its own merits.—I went as far as I could go, & God put up with Eve as far as He could go‚ but when she began to be more of a hindrance than a help‚ that was the end! She wasn't much help to me physically any longer either, she didn't stay home enough, she resented sex & would always make some crack, "Why do you have to be so carnal, so fleshly & always want sex all the time!", & she'd act like she was above it. But I noticed she managed to obtain her orgasms quite frequently, or I made sure she did! So she wasn't totally above sex, but she pretended to be, & pretended that I was the sinner & she was the saint.

66. Well, that's my story & why I put up with it so long.—Because it was just not God's time for us to separate yet. But when God's time came, that was it! I was through with her! The only reason I didn't leave her was because the Bible says not to put her away unless she's guilty of fornication, & as far as I knew, she'd never had sex with anybody else, so I figured she wasn't guilty of fornication. I hadn't gotten the revelation yet that she was fornicating constantly in the spirit … therefore she was worse off & more guilty than if she'd been fornicating in the flesh! So anyhow, that was the end, that's my story.

67. Now, Barz' story, let's take him for an example: His wife was a murmurer, complainer, doubter‚ deprecator, she refused to submit to authority or leadership, she was rebellious & stubborn. He needs to memorise some of those Scriptures about stubbornness & rebellion being worse than witchcraft & idolatry!—1Sam.15:23. In other words, she became a witch & an idolater! She idolised the past & her father & the church & the System, so therefore she should have been thrown out! If she would not repent & change & get converted & get the victory, she should not have been allowed in the Family for 12 years! What the hell is wrong with our leadership that they couldn't see that? Well‚ the point was that most of the time they were not under leadership.

68. It wasn't until they were really put under strict mission field leadership where they had to toe the line & live up to certain standards that there was finally a complete falling out & she backslid. The leaders even consented to her being put in a hotel, & she lived in that hotel, I think, for six weeks, something ridiculously intolerable! I would have … sent her home!

69. Of course, you do have to have a little humanitarianism‚ you have to have a little what they call human rights, you can't just throw her out on the field alone with no money & no place to go, no place to stay. You have to have at least a little mercy‚ & if the Prodigal Son wants to go home, let him go home! In that case she was prodigal the wrong way!

70. In their case, because they were not under good leadership, or any leadership, most of their life in the Family, even Barz is still a little independent & it's hard for him to be under leaders, but he does real well in a sort of an independent ministry where he can be his own boss. He's done very well there. He's found a real ministry & he really goes over. His type goes over with those top officials & generals, etc., & he's doing great, but it's a ministry he can sort of do on his own.

71. So I think the criterion, the yardstick, the general rule, the measurement by which a decision should be made whether a mate leaves or is left‚ is the question, "Are they a help or a curse?—A hindrance or a help?—A steppingstone or a stumblingblock?" (Maria: You said about that verse, "Who is my mother‚ my father or my sister?", that it can include "wife" or "husband." So the answer is "they that do the Will of my Father."—Otherwise they're not.) Right, that can definitely include wives & husbands.

72. After seeing so many of these cases‚ I am convinced—& I have always been this way from the very beginning, from our early little schools, to the Light Club‚ to our Colonies—I have always said it's better to kick out a murmurer & complainer who criticises leadership & is bringing division! It's much better to get rid of the bad apple before it poisons the other apples, far better! That's when the time to separate has come!—When they're constantly murmuring & complaining & continually doing it, & not repenting of it, not stopping it. My God‚ in their case it went on for 12 years with her till she finally did make the break & actually left physically. She had left in her heart long before.

73. "These people worship Me with their mouths‚" God said, "but their hearts are far from Me" (Mat.15:8), & that was certainly her! She got to where she didn't even worship with her mouth, really, she just murmured, complained, doubted & sowed doubts & murmurs. So she was a bad influence on everyone, especially their children.

74. That's probably why the Lord's letting the children go through it now & being tested, to see who was really right, Mom or Dad, they're going to see it now. They spent four years with their father in the ministry, now they have to spend a little time with their mother‚ & if they're not convinced any other way that she's of the Devil, & the whole System is of the Devil‚ then this is going to do it!

75. I'm sure the Lord's putting them through the mill right now to purify them so they'll come out as pure gold.—Also to teach the whole Family a lesson from the mistakes he made. He put up with her too long. She no doubt poisoned the children a lot till he got ahold of them full-time. You know she did, she must have. So now they're getting their fill of her too so they can see how far off she is & how wrong she & the people who back her are!

RULES FOR SEPARATIONS!

76. Usually, once a murmurer, always a murmurer, once a doubter, always a doubter! And if you don't [kick out] people like that, they'll just be a rotten apple wherever they go. Obviously she got kicked out of that Home on the field. So he was refusing to let her go. That's the only reason they tolerated him putting her in a hotel, because he just wouldn't let her go!

77. (Maria: What about separations where the two mates simply can't get along & their children are suffering from it? In some cases it's not so severe that you would actually just kick the person out of the Family right then & there, but just separate them from their mate & children & give them one more chance to change.)

78. Providing the mate in question is still very loyal to the Lord‚ the Family & its leadership & its doctrines, we might give them a chance someplace else.—If the differences are purely personal & it's merely a personal matter, they can't get along with each other's personality & ways & they can't stand to live with each other peacefully. If their problems have nothing to do with any doubts or criticisms of the Family or leadership or their own disobedience, stubbornness, rebelliousness against leadership or the Family or doubts of doctrines‚ etc., if it has nothing to do with those spiritual aspects & it's merely a personality difference, a personality clash, then that's a different story.

79. But if it's a difference between the offending mate & the Family or our leadership or our doctrines, & that's where their doubts & murmurings lie‚ then they should be put out!—If they won't repent & stop it, they should be put out. She should have been put out long ago! She has been a thorn in the flesh of the Family for years, & the only reason she got away with it was because they mostly did it alone in their own place‚ their own house, their own van, their own apartment or farm, always living alone without leadership over them, always on their own. He liked that, he still likes it. It's still hard for him to submit to leadership. But he has! It wasn't easy for him, but he did it. But she just flatly refused, she wouldn't do it!

80. They allowed people to come into their Home where they were still the boss, but whenever they had to live in someone else's Home where someone else was the leader & the boss, she chafed against it & rebelled against it & complained against it & they never got along. She practically drove him out of every Home where they ever lived together. (Maria: She was also bitter about even having had the kids. It must have come out in her attitude towards them‚ they must have realised that from the way she treated them.)

81. That's one thing I can say for Eve, she never let any of that bitterness show, it was only during those first couple of years when they were very young & it was all diapers & bottles & constant clamour, constant problems & constant care‚ that she really almost got discouraged & complained about it. But as they began to grow & she could teach them Scriptures & she saw that she had a real ministry there, she stopped complaining. And eventually she was very very thankful for them, & saw that God had really given them as her ministry & that she could make a ministry out of them for herself.

82. So I would say the rule should be that if they are a murmurer, complainer, stubborn, doubter, against the Family or its leadership or its doctrines, that's against the Lord.—And if they can't change very quickly they should be put out immediately. It should not be tolerated, they should not be tolerated or left in the Family.

83. God gives a very definite rule about that‚ that first of all you're to go to them yourself personally‚ privately, & try to persuade them. If that doesn't do it, you're to take two or three witnesses with you, & in front of two or three witnesses you try to persuade them. If they still refuse to change, then you're supposed to bring them before the whole congregation, in other words, the Home, & openly charge them & try to get them to confess & repent & change before the Family. And if they still refuse, Jesus Himself said put'm out, "Let him be unto thee as an heathen man & a publican!"—Mat.18:15-17.

84. So there's no question about it in God's Word, it's as clear as it can be! This is obviously a picture of a Home or a congregation, that anybody who is rebellious, unrepentant & a doubter & a murmurer & a complainer & stubborn & disobedient & refuses to change, after you have given them three chances‚ once alone privately, second time with witnesses, third time with the whole congregation, in other words‚ the whole Home together, & they still refuse to repent & change, out they go! You have no further obligation whatsoever to keep them.

85. We found the best thing to do was just give them their bus fare home or to the next city or someplace where they could phone their folks for fare to go home, & their folks were always glad to give them fare to get home. We got them out as far away as we could so they wouldn't poison people in the neighbourhood.

86. But if it is merely a case of a personality clash‚ just over personalities, a difference between individuals & their personalities & what they're like & the way they do things, & they just can't get along together‚ I've taught the solution to this problem for years! I started teaching it when Jeth & Deb were having a problem along that line. I said it's time for them to get together & decide to separate & decide on who gets who as far as the children are concerned. If they just cannot get along together & their squabbles are doing more harm than good before the children, etc., then they should separate & divide the children, if they just cannot get along.

87. I told that to Deb & Jeth when they wanted to separate. I brought them together & told them off, "Now either you get it together, or separate & agree on the division of the children!" Well, I think at that time Deb didn't want to divide the children, so she was willing to put up with Jeth for a little longer. He didn't want to divide at all, he didn't even want to leave her, but she wanted to leave him. He was almost as hypnotised by her as Barz has been by Vivian.

88. Barz needs a real revelation, he needs a real deliverance from her spell over him! He needs to see how evil & how horrible & how vicious, how vile & how terrible she is! (Maria: She's really insane! You can tell by her letters.) The things she said were so totally contrary! She's nuts! She's possessed, she's schizophrenic!—But he just can't see it! I don't know why he's so blind! Some kinds of love are too blind!

89. So that's our policy regarding separations: If it's a mere personality difference, it might be good for them to separate, even to divide the children, but stay in the Family.—If they still love the Lord & the Family & the leadership & our doctrines.

90. But if it is a question of their love of the Lord & the Family & our doctrines, & they are doubters, murmurers‚ criticisers‚ divisionists, then there's no question about it at all! If they will not repent immediately with those three chances—one alone in private, one with 2 or 3 witnesses & one before the whole Home, if they will not show genuine repentance & a genuine humbling & contrition & begging for forgiveness & a definite change, they're to be put out of the Family completely!—In which case, of course, the remaining mate, who stays faithful & loyal to the Family & the Lord & His Work, should try to keep all of the children.

91. If the two mates remain in the Family they should agree on a division of the children. Maybe the mother doesn't even want the children, she'll let the husband have them. That's up to them. They can make that decision with their leadership's help & advice on where to go & how to split the kids, or who should keep them, & they all stay in the Family.

92. But if it's a matter of one of the mates being against the Family & its leadership & its laws, & they're a rebel & a backslider at heart‚ then they should be put out [with] the children [who] have gone the way of the backslider & have been persuaded by him or her to be backsliders & rebels too.

93. If some of the children go after her—& in many of these cases that's the way it is, some of the children follow one mate & some of the children follow the other—even the children in such a case should be given their choice. If they want to go with the backsliding mate, let'm go. That's what God's Word says about one mate, "If the unbelieving depart‚ let them depart!"—1Cor.7:15.—And I think that should cover the children too! (Maria: But the children would have to have the situation carefully explained to them. They need to have it explained to them so they understand in spirit what's really happening, & not just leave the Family because they happen to love to be with Mommy most of the time & are more attached to her.)

94. The Lord says quite clearly that a husband or a wife is not bound in such a case.—1Cor.7:15. A mate is not bound to the backsliding mate. …

95. … If some of the children choose to go with the backsliding mate, then the faithful mate should be willing to surrender those passports to the backsliding mate & the backsliding children & let'm go.

A QUESTION ABOUT [MURMURERS]:

96. (Maria: In some cases should we try putting the murmuring mate [someplace else where] … they'd have one last chance there, & they might be able to make it.)

97. Not if they're murmurers against the Lord & His Work & His leadership! Not if they're doubters, criticisers & murmurers! There is no place where it says you've got to give them one more chance in another family. It says, "Bring them before the congregation," it doesn't say "Put them in another congregation & see if they can get along there," it will just poison others. It all depends on their attitude! What is their problem? Is it rebellion against our basic doctrines & the Lord & the leadership?—Or is it just that they can't get along in that particular Home?

THE RULES!

98. Well, I think that's all that I need to say, & that's enough. Those are the rules. Each case has to be judged on its own merit. First of all, if it's a case between mates, one mate needs to deal with the other. The one who's the good mate & faithful to the Family & its doctrines & leadership should deal with the errant, backslidden-at-heart mate‚ & if they won't hear them, then it says take 2 or 3 witnesses to prove that they are really backslidden at heart & rebellious.

99. And then if they won't hear them, take them before the whole Home, the congregation. And if they will not hear them, then out they go as a heathen & a heretic, & we have no further obligation to them whatsoever! In which case the mate who was loyal should try to keep the children. And if the children are older children, he or she is probably going to have to give them their choice, whether they want to go or whether they want to stay. Because they may be backsliders-at-heart too. The backsliding mate may have already poisoned them so that they would be nothing but trouble & a problem.

LEADERSHIP'S NEED FOR DISCERNMENT!

100. (Maria: The leadership in cases like this have really got to ask the Lord for discernment & wisdom.—Because a wife, for example, who is a complete murmurer to her husband behind closed doors, may get the leadership on her side against her husband.—Especially if he's the "sinner" sort of guy.)

101. (We've had a lot of cases like that where the erring mate—usually the woman—is so sly, she does all her murmuring behind closed doors. But the husband is more of an out-in-the–open sinner, so the wife complains to the leadership against the husband, & it makes it look like the husband is in the wrong, when she's actually much worse!) Yes, our leadership certainly does need more discernment & they need to hear all sides‚ too, before making a decision.

102. If the problem mate is rebelling not just against their mate but against the Family & its way of life & its doctrines & its leadership‚ then they're the one that's a rebel & wrong, & they need to either get right or get out!

103. And if the children are old enough to make a choice, all right, let them make a choice. If they're not old enough, try to keep them. … If the loyal mate stays, he or she should try to keep them all. But if that's going to cause serious problems & the backslider insists on taking one or two of them, particularly if the kids are older & want to go with the backslider, then you just about have to let them go. (Maria: That way, if the two of them agreed on it, they could go down to the embassy & have their papers officially signed, "She gets these children & I get these children.")—Just like Barz did, which was very wise. He had her go to the embassy or consulate & had her sign the agreement that he was keeping the children.

104. Of course, that didn't hold any water with the U.S. goons that came! And they railroaded him, totally against the spirit of the law. They railroaded him into that without any warning, without time to study, without counsel, without guidance. I'll tell you, if he ever needed a lawyer, he needed it then! A good lawyer could have spoken for him & socked it to them!